Recent articles in the New York Times and the StarTribune (March 29, 2014) covered Gwyneth Paltrow’s announcement that she and her husband of 11 years, Chris Martin, were consciously uncoupling. In other words, getting a divorce. I was struck by how the term “conscious uncoupling”—coined by LA therapist and author, Katherine Woodward Thomas—neatly describes what happens in the out-of-court divorce process called Collaborative Law aka Collaborative Practice. Collaborative Practice uses a collaborative approach to respectfully honor the marriage that is ending and intentionally plan for the best possible future for all family members. What is accomplished by many couples in Collaborative Practice is what the term “conscious uncoupling” implies: mutual respect, integrity, being mindful of the well-being of children, planning for the future by problem-solving in the present, being empowered to make informed decisions, and creating a climate for healing.
A new era is upon us, one where ending a relationship does not have to be adversarial, judgmental, or harmful. If it takes a celebrity to lead us into this new era, I am all for it. Gwyneth, you go girl!
In my meetings with kids, I ask them to share perspectives on family, including hopes and wishes for how family might work best when parents are living in separate homes. I recently had the privilege to meet with four amazing young women; siblings whose parents are getting unmarried in a Collaborative Team Process.
I continually learn from kids with whom I work as a neutral child specialist. Each of these girls made thoughtful observations for me to share with their parents, so I asked them and their parents if I could write a blog post to share these ideas with others. Because they are thoughtful, empathetic and generous people, they agreed, and have my deep gratitude and appreciation.
Below are words of wisdom from Lauren, Kelly, Emily and Grace. Though focusing on one quote per girl, I want to stress that each of them had many wonderful insights about all the areas mentioned.
Lauren on Holiday and Birthday Celebrations
“I want one graduation party, not two. This is about me, not my parents. And I want them both to come and to get along.”
Lauren’s words represent the viewpoint of many kids, and are a powerful reminder that children of all ages have strong feelings about family celebrations. Lauren also talked about preserving family traditions on both sides for holidays, like Christmas. Tuning in to kids’ perspectives can help parents figure out how to preserve important traditions while adding new ones, providing grounding and clarity for all family members.
Kelly on Co-parent Cooperation
“I want my parents to remember they’re both always my parents no matter which house I am at.”
Kelly’s words articulate the heart of the positive and profound shift in family law away from attaching custody labels toward co-parenting and creating parenting plans based on the best interests of kids. Kids dislike the feeling of going from “Mom Island” to “Dad Island,” and feel safer if parents respect and honor their relationships with both parents. Effective co-parent communication is a centerpiece of parenting and relationship plans in Collaborative Team Practice.
Emily on Transitions between Homes
“I hope my parents will have a one to two hour window for me to go from one house to the other, so it’s do-able if I am in the middle of something or with a friend.”
One of the most challenging aspects of a divorce for kids is transitioning between homes. It is vital that parents work together to make transitions as smooth, cordial and stress-free as possible. Emily’s words are an important reminder to regularly check in and listen to kids about what is working well and not so well in transitions. Parents need patience and empathy: kids have lives too!
Grace on Family Transformation
“I want us to be a together and apart family. We’re still a family, but we’re just split.”
Grace absolutely nailed why I do the work I do as a neutral child specialist. What she said is both insightful and core to helping kids develop resilience. It is so important that all family members move forward with the deep understanding that getting unmarried does not end a family with children, but transforms it.
Thank you Lauren, Kelly, Emily and Grace. We will keep listening!
Watching the Winter Olympics, a commercial captured my attention. The ad included footage of Olympic athletes who fell while competing, thus failing to reach a goal for which they had trained intensely and prepared for years. Although elite athletes know there is no assurance of winning, their hearts can still break when their hopes and dreams are shattered after a fall before reaching the finish line.
As you see in the commercial, the story didn’t end with failure. Each of the fallen athletes was shown years later, returning to give a winning performance. The theme of the ad was “there is always a second chance.” Though not every heartbreaking fall comes with a replay button, we know that life is a constant process of loss and renewal.
Those of us in the Collaborative divorce community are deeply attuned to the emotional event of a divorce. It is usually heartbreaking for all family members—the divorcing couple, their children and their extended families. It can certainly feel like a painful fall before the finish line of a marriage is reached. Hopes and dreams can feel shattered. We never want the story to end there.
Collaborative Team Practice is designed to help guide families making their transition through a painful time of loss with safety, respect, dignity and hope for the future. The Collaborative Team is comprised of professionals from many areas of practice:
Collaborative attorneys are skilled at listening deeply, helping clients set goals and engage in problem solving meetings that are non-adversarial in nature. Neutral Coaches work with clients to bring their best selves to problem solving meetings, and create a relationship plan with them if their future includes co-parenting their children. Neutral Financial Professionals generate creative options to help both clients come through their divorce on the best possible financial footing. Neutral Child Specialists meet with all family members, are supportive advocates for children in the family, and help parents create developmentally attuned parenting plans.Like a skilled sports team, each member of a Collaborative Team understands his or her unique role in the interplay of helping clients reach their goals while feeling understood and supported in the process of getting unmarried. We believe in the process and promise of renewal after loss.
I’m sharing this post with my readers because of the simple message of opportunity it carries for anyone facing divorce. If you know of someone about to face divorce, you would be doing him or her a great favor by sharing this article. You will help educate, inform, and provide the opportunity for choice and hope not only for the person you know, but also for their entire family.
This post is reprinted here with permission of Pauline Tesler, a Collaborative colleague who hails from California. Pauline is the co-founder and first president of the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals, frequent lecturer, and trainer.
Divorce as Temporary “Diminished Capacity”
You don’t need to be a lawyer or a psychologist to know that going through a divorce is one of life’s roughest passages. It can cause a myriad of emotional responses that can at times feel overwhelming and limit your ability to think clearly or make good choices. Unfortunately, this occurs at the very time you are called upon to make some of the most important decisions of your life.
For many people, the ending of a marriage is a time of temporary “diminished capacity.” By diminished capacity, we mean a period during which the person you thought you were on your best days—competent, thoughtful, considerate, reasonable, fair-minded, resilient—disappears for days or weeks at a time. The person you generally know yourself to be gets replaced temporarily by an unfamiliar and frightening self who can hardly summon up enough energy to get out of bed, wallows in fear, confusion or anger, or jumps to hasty conclusions in order to end the conflicting impulses about what to do and how to behave.
Recovering from the shock of a failed marriage involves moving through that initial period of diminished capacity, until gradually, more and more of the time, your pre-divorce “best-self” is back at the helm. Most people can expect to feel something like their old, pre-divorce selves in eighteen to twenty-four months from the time of the divorce decree, though it happens more quickly for some and more slowly for many. During that recovery period, it is quite common for people to veer suddenly and dramatically from day to day, or even hour to hour, between optimism and darkest pessimism, between cooperative good humor and frightening rage.
You may be experiencing such intense emotions as you come to terms with the possible—or actual—ending of your marriage. Most people do, at least some of the time. Keeping the focus on best intentions and good decision making in light of that reality is what collaborative divorce is all about.
Thinking clearly about what kind of divorce you want and how you’ll get there may be an unfamiliar concept to you. Most people are surprised to learn that the choices made right at the start of the divorce process have great impact on what kind of a divorce experience they will have. Even when people do understand the high stakes of those early choices, thinking clearly and making intelligent choices at that time can be very challenging, because divorce is an emotional wild ride like no other. Even very reasonable and civilized people can find unexpected, hard-to-manage emotions popping up at the most inconvenient times, particularly during the early months of a separation and divorce—exactly the time when you will be making decisions that determine what kind of divorce you are likely to get, and how your divorce will affect the rest of your life.
When you choose collaborative divorce, a team of professional helpers from the fields of law, psychology, and finance will provide coordinated support and guidance to help you and your partner slow down, reflect, focus on values, aspire to high goals, make good choices, work together constructively while avoiding court, plan for the future, and reach deep resolution. In our experience, this kind of coordinated professional help isn’t available anywhere else but in collaborative divorce. If you choose it, you and your spouse can count on professional advice and counsel that will:
- encourage both of you to remember your goal: the best divorce the two of you are capable of achieving
- educate and remind you about the divorce grief and recovery process so that you can choose to operate from your hopes rather than your fears
- help you focus on the future rather than the past, and on your deepest personal values and goals for the future rather than what the local judge is permitted to order
- make it possible for your financial advice to come from a financial expert, and your parenting advice to come from a child specialist, so that your lawyer is freed to do what lawyers do best: help you reach well-considered resolution
- keep you and your spouse focused on how your children are really doing, and how the two of you can help them move through the divorce with the least possible pain and “collateral damage”
- teach both of you new understanding and skills that will help you be more effective co-parents after the divorce than you may be capable of right now as your marriage ends
- make sure you and your spouse have all the information you’ll need to make wise decisions—not just information about the law, but also about finance, child development, grief and recovery, family systems, negotiating techniques, and anything else that will help you devise creative lasting solutions
- emphasize consensus and real resolution, not horse-trading and quick fixes
- help you maintain maximum privacy, creativity, and self-determination in your divorce.
As a Collaborative Attorney, this sort of thing makes me proud to be a Member of the Collaborative Law Institute of Minnesota (CLI).
I’m really excited to share that this May, CLI is hosting a four-day, international symposium to explore love and forgiveness in Collaborative Practice. The event is titled “Divorce: What’s Love Got to do With it?”
This event, to my knowledge, isn’t for people experiencing divorce. It’s for professionals who help people that are going through a divorce. Now, why you may ask is this important? Well, I think it’s really cool that a group of dedicated professionals is really thinking about how to make things better for divorcing families and families experiencing other life-events that we include under the label Family Law.
A grant from The Fetzer Institute is making it possible. You’ll want to check out their website; it’s really cool. Here is a sample of their take on love and forgiveness in the world:
I’m really excited to share that this May, CLI is hosting a four-day, international symposium to explore love and forgiveness in Collaborative Practice. The event is titled “Divorce: What’s Love Got to do With it?”
This event, to my knowledge, isn’t for people experiencing divorce. It’s for professionals who help people that are going through a divorce. Now, why you may ask is this important? Well, I think it’s really cool that a group of dedicated professionals is really thinking about how to make things better for divorcing families and families experiencing other life-events that we include under the label Family Law.
A grant from The Fetzer Institute is making it possible. You’ll want to check out their website; it’s really cool. Here is a sample of their take on love and forgiveness in the world:
We believe in the transformative power of love, love that protects us in our vulnerability while also impelling us to tend to the needs of others. We believe that forgiveness can also be transformative, a process that further extends the healing power of love. We accept that these forces have power: power to heal, and power to transform even the most difficult, troubled situation into something that is generative, affirming, and life-giving. In a world that seems dominated by aggression and separation, we are part of a broad and deep yearning for something different.I recently submitted my application to be a part of the host committee and to help brainstorm after the symposium is all done as part of the implementation committee to figure out ways to incorporate love and forgiveness into Collaborative Practice on a local and practical level. To learn how love and forgiveness can play a part in your family, contact Arnold Law and Mediation or locate another Collaborative Professional.
Divorce is a challenging and life-changing experience for all family members, and most divorcing parents worry about how their children will be affected in the short and long term. Because divorce is such a significant event for children, these concerns are understandable. As a neutral child specialist, when helping parents address their concerns, I encourage them to consider three guiding principles.
Guiding Principle #1: The crisis of divorce should never become a trauma for children.
Although divorce will almost always be painful and difficult for children, it is entirely possible for parents to keep it from becoming traumatic. Children can be traumatized when trapped in an environment of high conflict, danger, abandonment or abuse. None of these words should describe a child’s experience of divorce.
Guiding Principle #2: Children must be kept in the center and out of the middle of their parents’ conflict.
It is understandable that divorcing parents will experience conflict with each other. It takes mindfulness and empathy for parents to set the kind of clear boundaries that keep their children from being drawn into the conflict. Being in the middle always impacts children negatively. It is toxic to use children as confidantes, ask them to take sides against the other parent or disparage the other parent in their presence. The decision to take the high road and not put children in the middle is one that parents will never regret.
Guiding Principle #3: There is such a thing as a good divorce for families.
Judith Wallerstein’s longitudinal research on the impact of divorce on children painted a bleak picture of negative, long term developmental, social, academic, emotional and behavioral effects. Wallerstein studied families who divorced in 1971, a time when family law was typically adversarial and divorce was socially stigmatized. In 1994, Constance Ahrens wrote The Good Divorce: Keeping your Family Together when your Marriage is Falling Apart based on her own longitudinal study. Ahrens found that when divorced parents could reduce conflict, communicate effectively, and co-parent cooperatively, their children did not experience long term adverse effects.
These children continued to feel a reassuring sense of family, transformed from under one roof to under two. With the right kind of personal and professional support, parents can make a healthy transition from a divorced couple to effective co-parents. Making this transition successfully makes a huge difference in the quality of life for children.
Non-adversarial methods of divorce undoubtedly enhance parents’ ability to create child-centered outcomes. Since 1990, there has been a sea change in family law, including models of collaborative practice, mediation and cooperative divorce. When divorce must happen, choosing a child-centered divorce process is another decision that most parents will never regret. For more information on Collaborative Team Practice, please visit the website of the Collaborative Divorce Institute of Minnesota.
I just finished watching the documentary, Divorce Corp, and I have to admit that I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, as someone who has devoted his career to helping people understand that divorce should not occur in court, or even in the shadow of the courthouse, this movie may be a powerful tool in raising awareness of this very serious issue. On the other hand, as someone who feels dedicated to the truth and who feels a deep commitment to helping people fully understand their options in a fair and honorable manner, I bristled at some of the sensationalism and the broad generalizations made from some extreme examples.
To the extent that the movie attempts to show that the problem with our family law system is that it is inundated with corrupt judges, greedy lawyers and dishonest custody evaluators, I need to state very clearly that I do not believe that to be true. Having worked in the family law system in Minnesota for more than 30 years, including two decades in court, I have found that the majority of judges, divorce lawyers and custody evaluators are honest people who care about children.
Indeed, one of the reasons I strongly believe that the adversarial system does not work in resolving family issues, is that operating in the shadow of an adversarial system often damages families even when you have good people involved. There is much need for reform of our system and there is a strong need to raise awareness about the alternatives to court. I had hoped that the movie would help people understand the existing alternatives to court rather than focusing almost exclusively on proposing legislative changes.
To the credit of the movie makers, they did feature excellent commentary from two very credible peacemakers that I have come to know quite well. Woody Mosten and David Hoffman, two law professors who are worldwide leaders in mediation and Collaborative Practice, gave the movie producers valuable insights on how we can help families find a better way. While very few of those insights made it into the movie, the producers did release a trailer that discussed the benefits of mediation and Collaborative Practice as alternatives to court. An article by David Hoffman also does a good job summarizing many of the shortcomings of the film.
As for the rest of the movie, I am recommending that people see the movie and draw their own conclusions. Even if you disagree with some of the exaggerations and proposed solutions, as I clearly did, it will at least get us all thinking and talking about this important issue. If you happen to be someone who is facing divorce, you should not emerge from this moving believing you will have found any answers or even a real grip on the truth of our family law system. Rather, my hope is that the movie will cause you to respect the important question about how to proceed with divorce so that you will seek out reliable information about all of your options.
To learn more about Collaborative Law and other options that I believe are not clearly understood, go to www.collaborativelaw.org and www.divorcechoice.com.
In a recent collaborative divorce case, we learned from the clients that a tax liability of about $60,000 would be owed if they did not get their divorce by the end of the year. It was only a few days before Christmas and past the informal deadline set by the court for submitting final documents for a 2013 divorce. Adding to the challenge, my client had just changed her mind about a key provision in the financial settlement.
I had already prepared and circulated a draft of the agreement which had been reviewed by our clients and an expert who had helped them with planning and financial issues concerning their special needs child. Now it all seemed to be unraveling and I fought against the urge to find someone to blame and prove it wasn’t me (I bet these thoughts crossed the minds of the clients and others on the team). Instead, we got to work on the problems as a team.
The attorneys met with the expert concerning the special needs child and reviewed her suggested changes, made phone calls to our clients for approval, and drafted the new changes into the agreement. The child specialist who had worked with the clients during the collaborative process reviewed the suggested changes and made adjustments in the parenting plan which would be part of the final legal document.
We also had some preliminary conversations with our clients about the proposed change my client wanted in the financial settlement and shared our clients’ views. The proposed change concerned the timing of the sale of real estate and the neutral financial expert who had worked with us during the collaborative process had been contacted about this issue. We checked calendars with the clients and the financial neutral and scheduled a meeting–unfortunately, the husband’s attorney was not available at the only time which worked for the rest of the team and the clients. We agreed to meet and the attorney for the husband would be available during the meeting by phone and email.
We also needed to get a judge assigned to our case. The Joint Petition, which had been prepared in the beginning of the collaborative process, was filed with the court, which got us an assigned judge. The attorneys discussed strategy and we agreed that the husband’s attorney would take the lead in the calls requesting an expedited court process. There were a number of complications, including the fact that the judge was leaving on vacation that day. I listened in on the calls and was happy to hear that the judge’s clerk, after consulting with the judge, agreed to email the agreement to the judge once it was filed and the judge agreed to review it while on vacation.
We still needed a final agreement on the financial settlement. At the meeting the next day, the financial neutral took the lead and discussed the consequences of the proposed change, which would also affect the funding for education for their children. Options were considered and discussed. I was present at the meeting but had agreed on a ground rule with the other attorney that I would refer to her all questions of substance from her client. As we developed the terms of the final agreement, the substance was shared with that attorney in phone calls and emails. I prepared the final draft of the agreement with the new terms, the clients and attorneys (one by email) signed, and it was filed with the court that day after an all morning meeting. The judge signed the final document and the clients were divorced in 2013.
The key reasons for our success in working through the challenges:
1) The clients and professionals focused on solving the problems rather than assigning blame for the problems.
2) Clients and professionals relied on the strengths and expertise of different members of the team.
3) Trust among professionals allowed for flexibility and candor in the process.
4) Clients kept uppermost in mind the big picture goals for the family as a whole. 
Most divorce attorneys charge between $200 and $350 per hour. That fact could become a real obstacle in your divorce (and can even drive you a little crazy), unless you find ways to deal with it effectively. Here are some tips that I think will help you come to grips with this difficult reality.
Take a Macro Look at the Hourly Fees.
Charging by the hour creates an enormous misconception about how a lawyer’s time is used. For example, if an attorney charges $285 per hour, it creates the impression that each hour they spend on behalf of clients is worth $285. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I look back on my cases, even the cases where I think my clients achieved a priceless outcome, I realize that many of the hours I spent on the case were not worth anything near that amount.
Much of the time on the case is spent reviewing documents, listening to the client’s story about what has happened, describing the process to the client, going over ground rules, etc. Very likely, my client could find people to do some of those things for $15.00 per hour. Those tasks, by themselves, have little value.
On the other hand, when I look back on my most successful clients, the ones where clients made great decisions during their divorce, I realize that some of the moments that I spent with clients created a great deal of value for them.
A tangible example might be a time when I, often in conjunction with the other team members on the case, came up with a creative financial solution that saved the clients thousands of dollars in future taxes or transaction costs. The work spent on developing that option may have been less than an hour or two but may have led to savings that were worth more than ten times my hourly rate.
More significantly (and this is the most abstract part of our business), there are moments when the assistance of an attorney may be nearly priceless. When a client is struggling with the emotions of the divorce in a way that is causing them to mistreat their spouse and inadvertently harm their children, this may be when they need the most help from their “advocate.”
A good divorce attorney can sometimes help them rethink what they are doing; sometimes in subtle ways, like truly listening to a client, helping them see the impact of their behavior, urging them to get the help they need to address emotional barriers, or simply making sure they understand their options. The impact of that work may not be obvious at the time, or even for many years. Yet, when they look back, the clients come to realize that certain decisions that they made, hopefully with skilled guidance from their attorney, helped them achieve a priceless outcome for their family.
Collaborative Attorney Carl Arnold had the opportunity to speak with experienced Neutral Child Specialist Deborah Clemmensen. Carl Arnold asked Deborah Clemmensen about her role as a Neutral Child Specialist and the conversation was recorded. The audio and the the transcript of the interview are available below.
Interview with Deborah Clemmensen about the role of a Neutral Child Specialist.
Begin transcript:
My name is Carl Arnold, with Arnold Law and Mediation. I’m a Minnesota family law attorney and mediator and I’m here with Deborah Clemmensen. She’s a licensed psychologist and neutral child specialist.
Carl: Hi Deborah.
Deborah: Hi Carl.
Carl: So, we’re here to talk with Deborah today about being a neutral child specialist and her services in that regard. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background in working with kids.
Deborah: I’m happy to. I’ve been a licensed psychologist since the late ’70’s and I’ve worked in schools and community mental health centers…and for the last 11 years, I’ve provided neutral child specialist services to help families have a child-inclusive, respectful process to developing parenting plans when they’re going through a divorce or breakup. It’s a very satisfying type of work.
Carl: Well, let’s get right to it and say what is a neutral child specialist? How do you define that and what do you do?
Deborah: Good question and I’ll tell you how I explain it to new clients and sometimes to the kids that I work with. Neutral means that I never appear in court, that I have the capacity to work with people in problem solving and interest based negotiation without having to be in court or testifying or doing any of the things that are involved with the court process. Child specialist means that I have a chance to work with everyone in the family and find out the point of view of all the folks who, not elders and pets, of course, but all the points of view of children and parents to understand what would be the most developmentally appropriate resolution for parents moving forward after their divorce or breakup.
Carl: What is the benefit of this service compared to other ways that a family may go through a divorce or separation process?
Deborah: Well, I am just a part of the divorce. I’m the parenting plan part of a divorce, so I can help people to create a road map for how they’re going to move forward as co-parents without having to be in any sort of adversarial process. I think the neutrality is a big help. We can get right down to business and problem solve and think about the developmental needs of children in the family. I think having it be child-inclusive means that kids get some support during a very difficult time. Divorce or breakup is a crisis for a family and to be able to provide kids with an opportunity to share their point of view, someone who’s listening, and to know that that’s going to be part of problem solving that their parents will do. Their parents will hear what I’ve learned from the kids. I think it helps kids to feel a little bit safer moving forward so that strategic support is very important. And I think that having a neutral look at what are the ages and stages of the kids and what do they have to say about how this could work best for them moving forward is invaluable. I have learned a ton from the kids that I’m working with.
Carl: What would be a typical step-by-step part of the process? How does it start? When does it start? What’s the first step and so on?
Deborah: Good question. I believe that having a child specialist on board from the very beginning can be helpful because we anchor the work in the developmental needs of the kids and what’s best for the family system. I like to work with parents from the very beginning. Many parents come to me with the question of how do I talk to my children, how to we talk to our children about what’s going to be happening to our family. I love to help parents create developmentally appropriate “we” statements that they can share with the kids to start that journey.
My process begins with a joint meeting with parents and it’s focused on their kids, getting developmental histories, understanding what the parents’ concerns are moving forward and from that point, it sort of branches off based on the ages and stages of the kids. If the kids are in preschool, we might have a joint family playroom meeting just so I get to know the kids, experience them firsthand and provide that kind of support. We may, at that meeting, talk about what’s happening in the family and give them some grounding. I tell parents to describe me as the helper advocate for kids. If kids are school aged and older, then I do have a structured process: two meetings, one with the siblings together and one with each child independently and we do structured activities to help keep them at the center and out of the middle, to understand how they perceive family roles and functions. What are their hopes? What are their fears? How can we best be responsive? From that point, I do a feedback with parents. At that juncture, parents can decide if they would like to continue to work with me as a neutral child specialist to develop a parenting plan, which allows them to continue to think of themselves as parents making decisions, rather than people in a custody battle. We don’t use those labels. We talk in a different language that’s more family friendly.
Carl: So when people come to you, are they in the out-of-court processes like mediation or collaborative divorce or are they in court? How would you describe to people in what way do you relate to those processes?
Deborah: That’s another really good question. I would say the majority of the work I do is with collaborative teams. Collaborative being a type of alternative dispute resolution process that’s all outside of the court but works with teams of professionals – two attorneys, a neutral coach, a neutral financial person and a neutral child specialist – to all bring our skills to a very systematic and efficient way to help parents and families through this process. Some of my cases, though, come from other routes. I’ve worked with mediators in a team to do a child inclusive process for the parenting plan and I’ve worked with non-collaborative attorneys who believe, along with their clients, that this part of the divorce or the breakup really belongs outside of court, that if it can be done in a neutral setting, that that will set the stage for more positive co-parenting moving forward.
Carl: Where can people find out more information about your services for a neutral child specialist?
Deborah: I have a website. It’s www.deborahclemmensen.com and I go through that process in some detail so parents are prepared for what to expect coming in. I also have a web page on the Collaborative Law Institute of Minnesota website. That’s www.collaborativelaw.org. On that website, there are lists of professionals. I’m not the only person doing neutral child specialist work, so if folks were looking for someone in a particular geographic location, that would be an excellent resource to find a neutral child specialist.
Carl: Thanks a lot, Deborah. I appreciate having this conversation.
Deborah: It’s totally been my pleasure, Carl, thank you.
Carl: This has been Deborah Clemmensen, Licensed Psychologist and Neutral Child Specialist, and my name is Carl Arnold of Arnold Law and Mediation.