Collaborative Attorney Carl Arnold had the opportunity to speak with experienced Neutral Child Specialist Deborah Clemmensen. Carl Arnold asked Deborah Clemmensen about her role as a Neutral Child Specialist and the conversation was recorded. The audio and the the transcript of the interview are available below.
Interview with Deborah Clemmensen about the role of a Neutral Child Specialist.
Begin transcript:
My name is Carl Arnold, with Arnold Law and Mediation. I’m a Minnesota family law attorney and mediator and I’m here with Deborah Clemmensen. She’s a licensed psychologist and neutral child specialist.
Carl: Hi Deborah.
Deborah: Hi Carl.
Carl: So, we’re here to talk with Deborah today about being a neutral child specialist and her services in that regard. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background in working with kids.
Deborah: I’m happy to. I’ve been a licensed psychologist since the late ’70’s and I’ve worked in schools and community mental health centers…and for the last 11 years, I’ve provided neutral child specialist services to help families have a child-inclusive, respectful process to developing parenting plans when they’re going through a divorce or breakup. It’s a very satisfying type of work.
Carl: Well, let’s get right to it and say what is a neutral child specialist? How do you define that and what do you do?
Deborah: Good question and I’ll tell you how I explain it to new clients and sometimes to the kids that I work with. Neutral means that I never appear in court, that I have the capacity to work with people in problem solving and interest based negotiation without having to be in court or testifying or doing any of the things that are involved with the court process. Child specialist means that I have a chance to work with everyone in the family and find out the point of view of all the folks who, not elders and pets, of course, but all the points of view of children and parents to understand what would be the most developmentally appropriate resolution for parents moving forward after their divorce or breakup.
Carl: What is the benefit of this service compared to other ways that a family may go through a divorce or separation process?
Deborah: Well, I am just a part of the divorce. I’m the parenting plan part of a divorce, so I can help people to create a road map for how they’re going to move forward as co-parents without having to be in any sort of adversarial process. I think the neutrality is a big help. We can get right down to business and problem solve and think about the developmental needs of children in the family. I think having it be child-inclusive means that kids get some support during a very difficult time. Divorce or breakup is a crisis for a family and to be able to provide kids with an opportunity to share their point of view, someone who’s listening, and to know that that’s going to be part of problem solving that their parents will do. Their parents will hear what I’ve learned from the kids. I think it helps kids to feel a little bit safer moving forward so that strategic support is very important. And I think that having a neutral look at what are the ages and stages of the kids and what do they have to say about how this could work best for them moving forward is invaluable. I have learned a ton from the kids that I’m working with.
Carl: What would be a typical step-by-step part of the process? How does it start? When does it start? What’s the first step and so on?
Deborah: Good question. I believe that having a child specialist on board from the very beginning can be helpful because we anchor the work in the developmental needs of the kids and what’s best for the family system. I like to work with parents from the very beginning. Many parents come to me with the question of how do I talk to my children, how to we talk to our children about what’s going to be happening to our family. I love to help parents create developmentally appropriate “we” statements that they can share with the kids to start that journey.
My process begins with a joint meeting with parents and it’s focused on their kids, getting developmental histories, understanding what the parents’ concerns are moving forward and from that point, it sort of branches off based on the ages and stages of the kids. If the kids are in preschool, we might have a joint family playroom meeting just so I get to know the kids, experience them firsthand and provide that kind of support. We may, at that meeting, talk about what’s happening in the family and give them some grounding. I tell parents to describe me as the helper advocate for kids. If kids are school aged and older, then I do have a structured process: two meetings, one with the siblings together and one with each child independently and we do structured activities to help keep them at the center and out of the middle, to understand how they perceive family roles and functions. What are their hopes? What are their fears? How can we best be responsive? From that point, I do a feedback with parents. At that juncture, parents can decide if they would like to continue to work with me as a neutral child specialist to develop a parenting plan, which allows them to continue to think of themselves as parents making decisions, rather than people in a custody battle. We don’t use those labels. We talk in a different language that’s more family friendly.
Carl: So when people come to you, are they in the out-of-court processes like mediation or collaborative divorce or are they in court? How would you describe to people in what way do you relate to those processes?
Deborah: That’s another really good question. I would say the majority of the work I do is with collaborative teams. Collaborative being a type of alternative dispute resolution process that’s all outside of the court but works with teams of professionals – two attorneys, a neutral coach, a neutral financial person and a neutral child specialist – to all bring our skills to a very systematic and efficient way to help parents and families through this process. Some of my cases, though, come from other routes. I’ve worked with mediators in a team to do a child inclusive process for the parenting plan and I’ve worked with non-collaborative attorneys who believe, along with their clients, that this part of the divorce or the breakup really belongs outside of court, that if it can be done in a neutral setting, that that will set the stage for more positive co-parenting moving forward.
Carl: Where can people find out more information about your services for a neutral child specialist?
Deborah: I have a website. It’s www.deborahclemmensen.com and I go through that process in some detail so parents are prepared for what to expect coming in. I also have a web page on the Collaborative Law Institute of Minnesota website. That’s www.collaborativelaw.org. On that website, there are lists of professionals. I’m not the only person doing neutral child specialist work, so if folks were looking for someone in a particular geographic location, that would be an excellent resource to find a neutral child specialist.
Carl: Thanks a lot, Deborah. I appreciate having this conversation.
Deborah: It’s totally been my pleasure, Carl, thank you.
Carl: This has been Deborah Clemmensen, Licensed Psychologist and Neutral Child Specialist, and my name is Carl Arnold of Arnold Law and Mediation.
Telling your spouse you want to get a divorce may be the most difficult conversation you will ever have. The decisions you make during this critical time will affect you and your family for the rest of your life.
While there are many things to consider, my view after working with divorcing families for 30 years, is that these three considerations are the most important.
1. Make sure you are doing the right thing.
If you are unsure about whether divorce is your best option, make sure that you have fully explored all options. If you think counseling might work, take the time to find a counselor with experience and expertise in marriage saving. In addition, make sure you are aware that other divorce saving options, apart from counseling, that have been found to work, including programs like Retrouvaille, or programs offered through local churches and synagogues.
2. Make sure you understand all of your options before you move forward with the divorce.
Divorce is no longer a “one-size fits all” process. Today there are many divorce process options and you owe it to yourself to find the option that will work best for your family. Simply going to a traditional divorce attorney and starting a traditional divorce can be like going to a surgeon before you explore whether surgery is necessary. If possible, speak with professionals with knowledge and experience in all of the primary options, such as mediation and Collaborative Law, to make sure that you are getting accurate information about the choices available. To find professionals who can competently explain all options, go to www.divorcechoice.com and www.collaborativelaw.org.
3. Take some time to determine your most important goals.
One of the biggest mistakes people make when they are starting the divorce is to get locked into short-term thinking and ignore their real priorities. The sense of urgency in their current situation causes all of their attention to focus on putting out fires rather than achieving their most important goals. As a result, they look back on their divorce many years later wondering why things did not work out the way they had planned. To avoid that problem, take some time to really think about what will matter the most to you in your future life and make sure all of your divorce decisions focus on these important long term goals.
It is never easy to think about ending a marriage. However, if you can focus on preserving what is most important in your life, you can make your future less difficult. Divorce is about the end of an important relationship and the beginning of a new life. The decisions you make at the beginning will make a tremendous difference in the quality of that new life.
While divorce is often expensive, when you look back on your divorce many years from now, the financial cost is not likely to be your most significant concern. If things do not go well during your divorce it is more likely that your real regrets will have more to do with the “real cost” of divorce; the impact on your children and on your emotional state.
Can this “real cost” of divorce be reduced? Yes, but it takes hard work.
The cost of your marriage.
Of course, the first thing to think about is whether the divorce is necessary. If you are considering starting a divorce that you think can be avoided, make sure you explore all of your options before you give up on something you have worked to build. I am not talking about continuing to be unhappy in your marriage. I am only urging you to think about whether finding a way to become happy within the marriage may be a possibility and to consider whether the idea of happiness outside the marriage could be a mirage.
If you have determined that the marriage cannot be saved (and I realize this may not be within your control), your next focus needs to be on how to avoid the real “cost” or damage that divorce can create.
The cost of conflict to your family.
Almost all divorce cases settle before going to trial. However, many people experience conflict during the settlement that can cause long term damage to their co-parenting relationship or their ability to move forward with their lives.
So how do you achieve a settlement without high conflict and still protect yourself in the divorce process? Good settlements require a high degree of commitment. If you, and the professionals you hire, are truly committed to reaching a settlement that works for you and your children, you can achieve an outcome that reduces conflict and protects your other important interests.
While your commitment will make the most difference, you also want an attorney that is committed to getting a good settlement as well. Almost all attorneys today will say they want to help you achieve an acceptable settlement. However, the difference between wanting a good settlement and committing to settlement is night a day. If getting the best settlement, and avoiding the real “cost” of divorce is important to you, you should consider hiring an attorney that is fully committed to settlement.
Collaborative attorneys are attorneys who commit, in writing, to achieve a settlement that is acceptable to you. At the beginning of their case, both Collaborative attorneys sign a written document stating, in essence, that if they cannot get an acceptable settlement, they will be fired.
The commitment to settlement causes everyone to use methods that are more effective; including full transparency, negotiation based on big picture goals, working with other professionals for more efficiency and reducing the posturing and arguing. To learn more about the Collaborative Process, and to find attorneys who are experienced in this area, go to www.collaborativelaw.org or www.divorcechoice.com. ![By Antoine Ducrot (1814–?) (Koller Auktionen) [Public domain], <a href=](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Antoine_Ducrot_Galante_Szene_auf_dem_Feld.jpg)
I have learned a few things over the years being a divorce and family law attorney and mediator.
One thing I have observed is that men are often result-oriented in a divorce (and just generally in life, right?!). They frequently believe that they have a solution worked out. If only their spouse would listen to them, they could have been done with this whole process yesterday.
I have also observed that while women are concerned about the terms of the final agreement, they also want to be sure that they go through a thoughtful process to get there. Part of this stems from women’s tendency to value relationships more than men.
Another part of this is that men may not appreciate the extent that relationships matter in negotiations. If men understood how much relationships matter in negotiations, they would be more thoughtful in how they approach negotiations in divorce, because as a result they would frequently find that they would get better outcomes for themselves and their spouses.
With more open communication comes more potential options that benefit both people. A great way to approach a negotiation is to start by trying to listen and ask open ended questions in order to honestly figure out what the other person wants and why they want it, in order to better understand their perspective. Without this knowledge, many potential settlement options will go undiscovered, which results in lost opportunities for both people.
Of course generalizations about men and women are not always fair or accurate, but what negotiation professionals understand is that—regardless of gender—if a person feels valued and respected, they are more likely to show the same value and respect in return. The result of this mutual respect is that communication between the two people, in a divorce or other legal process, is more open and honest and more effective and efficient, which almost invariably leads to more potential options for settlement and better outcomes for both people.
It is not uncommon for two people to come to divorce at very different points in readiness. In fact, one spouse may not want the divorce at all. You may not have anticipated your spouse wanting a divorce, but that does not mean you can ignore it. If one spouse wants a divorce, it needs to be addressed. If things cannot be worked out in counseling, or if one of spouse is not interested in therapy to improve the marriage, you will need to address the divorce. Minnesota is a no-fault-divorce state. This means a divorce may be granted if either party wants to end the marriage–you do not both need to agree.
If one of you wants divorce, the other spouse should meet with an attorney to learn about the process. You will need legal guidance to help you through the divorce process and learn about your options. Collaborative divorce is one of the best options available to divorcing couples. Collaborative divorce allows both spouses to have legal representation, but moves through the process in a respectful and non-adversarial way. If discussing parenting schedules, child custody, financial division of property, or support options is challenging for you, you may want an advocate who is also versed in the emotional needs of both of you.
The Collaborative Process also allows for other neutrals to help guide and support you through the process. A child specialist can help address parenting challenges. They have expertise in child development and co-parenting challenges and they can help tailor agreements that will work for the whole family.
A neutral coach can help support you emotionally through the process. Maybe you need help with communication or guidance to work on a particularly emotional issue; a coach can help with this. Indeed the collaborative structure as a whole is designed to help you be your very best in this process. Even if you don’t want the divorce, bringing your best self forward will help the process go as smoothly as possible.
Divorce is not an easy process. It is particularly challenging if you don’t want the divorce. Seeking a safe and caring process may be the best thing you do for yourself and the outcomes reached. Do not let the fact that the divorce is unwanted, or comes as a surprise, hinder you. Choose a process that will help you feel safe and protected.
A divorce is not only an emotional event, it is a financial event. As the year ends, people often focus on tax implications of divorce. Being planful and mindful of taxes may benefit both spouses moving forward. Having a good collaborative team can help you work through tax issues and make the best financial decisions possible.
Here are some things to think about regarding taxes and divorce:
If you are still married on December 31, you can file your taxes jointly as married–even if you are divorced by the time your taxes are due. You may want to work together to determine the best overall tax scenario and work together to save the family the most money possible in a given tax year.
- You may want to include language about the tax consequences for your last year of marriage in the decree. Clarifying that any liability or refund for that year is shared, could save you effort later in the year when one or both of you have a claim to the other’s refund/liability.
- The IRS does not care about the specifics of your property division. Unless it is explicitly in the decree, the IRS will not consider whether one of you received more property in exchange for less tax liability. The IRS operates on its own and you should obtain attorney advice on tax liability before finalizing the divorce.
- You may want to look at the tax implications of filing as Head of Household v. Single post-divorce. Who will claim the dependent exemptions? Do the exemptions need to accompany other benefits claimed such as healthcare reimbursement or child care benefits? Taking the time to think through these issues before finalizing the divorce could save you time and money later.
Marie and Tim are divorced, but decided to enter CBS’s Amazing Race and spend 24 hours a day together tackling obstacles under constant stress with $1 million on the line. They ended up in 2nd place and did not win the million, but think about how wonderful it is to see exes working together in a way that gets them all the way to 2nd place in a highly competitive race on reality TV.
In their Race bios they both complained that the other does not listen well and always needs to be right. Tim wrote, “I would like us to be able to communicate what’s best for each other as an ‘us.’”
In the Collaborative Divorce process we begin by asking the couple about their goals for finances, children, housing and their own relationship. Do they want to stay friends? Do they want to stay connected to in-laws? If there are children, do they want to share activities with their re-structured family? Often, divorcing couples will identify the exact same goal Tim identified above.
Collaborative Divorce recognizes that dissolving a marriage does not have to be the same as ending the relationship. Many couples prefer to stay friends. In the Collaborative Process, couples can work with a neutral divorce coach to have honest conversations about their patterns of interaction and communication. It is an opportunity to say, “Yeah, we both want to always be right and neither of us listens very well.” That kind of frank, open communication can lead to the ability to continue a rewarding relationship and, apparently, even try to win a million dollars together!
Tim and Marie, I wish you had the million. Thank you for showing us that a couple can end their marriage, disagree with each other, have typical relationship conflicts, get frustrated with each other AND stay friends who can work together for a common goal whether it is for themselves, their children or the possibility of a million dollars. 
Rupert Murdoch’s divorce from his third wife is all but final. It seems they reached a settlement agreement that presumably divides their assets and details a parenting schedule for their two children. Who did what to whom? Who is the more capable parent? What is the settlement? What did the reported prenuptial and multiple postnuptial agreements say? We will never know and it is for the best.
While the details would have provided entertaining reading about how the other half live, the family will benefit from not having their opinions/positions about each other immortalized in an affidavit or court transcript. While I can only guess what went on behind closed doors, I believe the following quote from their publicist hints that they may have gone into negotiations with a shared goal of dissolving their marriage in a respectful manner, with the needs of their two daughters in the forefront.
“We move forward with mutual respect and a shared interest in the health and happiness of our two daughters,” the Murdoch publicist stated.
By not taking a position and sharing an interest, the Murdochs did not have to divulge the details that would have helped a judge to make a decision about their lives, and would have kept people entertained for hours. They took matters into their own hands and figured it out with a common goal, and thereby they were able to keep private matters private.
Thus, they gave their daughters the best chance of being happy, as they could go through life without knowing, hopefully, what their parents thought of each other. They are left knowing that their welfare guided their parents discussions and kept the matter out of court, and therefore, confidential. 
Choosing an attorney to represent you in a divorce proceeding at first may sound fairly straightforward. Too often I see this critical step not being given the attention it deserves. Sometimes it is simply a friend, relative or co-worker who refers someone who they felt or heard was good. While everyone means well, I suggest they probably don’t know what your goals and interests are for your divorce. They don’t know if a particular attorney is a good fit for you.
Sometimes a client will find the first attorney who tells them what they want to hear. This often is a big red flag. Ultimately, only you will be able to decide who the best fit may be for your circumstances. I hope this three part series of posts on the importance of choosing an attorney, issues to consider when choosing an attorney, and finally some questions to ask a divorce attorney, will provide you with some valuable insights.
I believe choosing an attorney is the third most important decision you will make on your journey to get unmarried. Remember in The first post of “Getting Unmarried” the most important decision is deciding to get unmarried in the first place. In Part II, I wrote the second most important decision is to research and decide “How to get unmarried;” essentially deciding on the divorce process that you feel–and hopefully your spouse feels–will accomplish the goals you both want to achieve.
The third most important decision I’ll cover in this first of a three part series will be on the importance of choosing an attorney for yourself and equally as important if not more important is who your spouse decides to hire as an attorney. But let’s put first things first. In my way of thinking, you can’t begin to choose an attorney until you first, decide to get unmarried and, secondly, decide what type of divorce process you and your spouse want to use.
Provided you have made these first two decisions, let’s make an assumption that both you and your spouse will want an attorney. If you have children from your marriage and or have significant assets and/or liabilities to ultimately allocate between you and your spouse in a property settlement, I strongly encourage everyone with these circumstances to be represented by an attorney. Let me disclose here, I am not an attorney. Too many do it yourself divorce packages often result in repeated appearances in court and end up being significantly more costly to the clients down the road. Leaving it to guesswork or not giving your property settlement the attention it deserves can be costly. Remember your marriage may not last forever but your property settlement will.
If you have children let me share this quote by Neil Postman, an American writer and professor, with you. “Children are the living messages we send to a time we will not see.” When children are involved they will be watching closely for the messages you and your spouse send to them about your divorce. They will live and carry those messages throughout their lifetime.
For these reasons, give careful and thoughtful consideration to the process you choose for your divorce and the attorneys both you and your spouse end up hiring. In the second part of this series, I outline important issues to consider when choosing an attorney. 
The following blog was written by Bruce Peck, a Collaborative Attorney.
Bruce can be reached at (952) 435-6799 and www.brucepecklaw.com.
Some injuries heal as effortlessly as skinned knees on children. Other injuries take longer, and leave scars. Some injuries are so severe they take years, decades or lifetimes to heal, if at all. These are the kind of injuries that happen all too frequently in the realm of divorce.
One of the most difficult things to do is to learn how to stop loving someone because they have stopped loving you. Sometimes the best dreams are followed by the worst nightmares. When truth and trust are both violated, the betrayal that can follow is among the most difficult things to heal.
While healing is not accomplished by everyone, the possibility of healing is available to everyone. Divorce is a seriously complicated circumstance, because in addition to the loss of the marriage the parties also have to work together, or against each other, to reach a final settlement. When hearts are broken, this can be extraordinarily painful. Falling in love can be awfully simple, but getting divorced is simply awful.
If only there was a process that could insulate parties from the damaging experience of a contested divorce. If only children could be protected from the resulting carnage that flows over their parents. If only there was a better chance to heal while going through the divorce process.
Well, there is. It is called collaborative divorce, and is promoted by the Collaborative Law Institute. Created here in Minnesota, now taught world-wide, this humane technology, honed over more than two decades through conscientious involvement by attorneys, mental health professionals and financial specialists, has become a highly refined process that supports parties to heal through this challenging time.
It starts with the commitment of the Collaborative Law Institute to be and become a healing modality by providing rigorous training to all professionals. The resulting process is a container that insulates parties from the conflict while supporting them to reach principled decisions that become their final decree of dissolution.
But it goes well beyond that. Collaborative practice now includes the opportunity for parties take a break before launching into the legal process to assess each party’s readiness to engage in this process. Mental health professionals have become trained in a new paradigm, generally referred to as discernment counseling, which allows parties to talk about where each one is at as they start this process, and consider the possibilities of working on healing their relationship. This process is commonly referred to as reconciliation, which means, literally, healing, not necessarily returning to the marriage.
However, when parties are able to heal their relationship they are better able to consider ways in which they might be able to recreate a better marriage. It makes no sense to simply return to a marriage fraught with problems.
The primary requirement for such a process to take place requires the commitment of both parties to genuinely exam and explore options before moving forward with the divorce. When parties are unwilling or unable to process through these issues at the end of their marriage, they are left with the prospect of healing by conducting their personal and private autopsy of their marriage, with or without the help of a qualified counselor. This can be quite difficult to accomplish. It requires ethical integrity by each partner to commit to such an undertaking.
The collaborative process cannot heal the parties, but it can provide the process by which that possibility might take place. That is no small accomplishment under these circumstances.
Sometimes parties that heal their relationship might still decide to move forward with their divorce. When this happens, they are each in a powerful place to facilitate gathering the necessary information and reaching agreements to resolve all the issues. The stress upon each party is significantly reduced and the benefit to children is immeasurable. Usually the overall costs and expenses are reduced due to the ability of the parties to do the work necessary to reach conclusion.
It has been said that the Chinese character for crisis is two characters that mean dangerous opportunity. In our western society we are not taught instinctively to look for opportunity, but we know all too well what the dangers are. When we live only in fear we are not very adept at healing.
To learn more about this process, and to find professionals trained to provide these services visit us at www.collaborativelaw.org.